[Full disclosure: I used to be a (very enthusiastic) member of the church when I was 18, attending the myriad of cell group and prayer sessions that took up most of my time. The one year spent among the CHC crowd taught me plenty, though what I learnt was probably not what the church had in mind. By the end of the one year my beliefs in the CHC's idea of God had diminished to nothing -- I left the church with the conviction that I will never return. That is my personal story, which speaks of an obvious bias against the church, but I will keep this entry as objective as possible.]
City Harvest Church is having its Asia Conference 2008 in November, inviting famous charismatic pastors from all over the world to speak at the event. Among them is a multi-millionaire by the name of Benny Hinn, the "Bill Gates of televangelism".
His claim to possess the "anointing" - the power to heal the sick - is disputable, but there is no doubt that someone up (or down?) there is looking after him. The allegations of fraud are so stacked up against him that one wonders how the man continues to be able to preach to hundreds of thousands of people.
A brief look at the man:
- His prophecies include the annihilation of the American homosexual community in 1995 by God. [More here]
- His claims to healing have been repeatedly challenged by investigative news reports; Hinn's promises to present "solid proof" have not been kept. Skeptics note that "there is a danger that people who believe themselves cured will forsake medical assistance that could bring them relief or even save their lives." [More here]
- Ministry Watch, an independent evangelical organization which reviews Christian ministries for financial transparency and efficiency, issued a Donor Alert stating that "the reported exorbitant spending of the Hinn family reveals that BHM has far more money than it needs to carry out its ministry". Despite this, Hinn's ministry continued sending out mailings in 2006 asking for donations towards a new Gulfstream G4SP jet valued at an estimated US$36 million. [See the mailing here]
If you still have the stomach to continue, watch this video by CBC exposing, among other things, Hinn's deception, his extravagant spending, and his discrimination against the truly disabled.
All the above is accessible through a simple Wikipedia search on the man himself. This man obviously has a tainted reputation, and it will be hard to believe that City Harvest is oblivious to this. So, given the (very plausible) assumption that CHC is aware of the man's checkered past, the question is: why did it invite him to its conference, and make him the star attraction?
Hinn's position at the extreme left in the poster reflects his importance as the main speaker
Does the CHC approve of Hinn's transgressions? Indeed, the manner in which Hinn conducts his "sermons" are very similar - if not identical - to the way CHC conducts its own. Is it deliberately supporting him in committing them?
These are legitimate and important questions that an objective person would ask, based on the facts gathered so far. But when I posted them up on the wall on the event's Facebook page, the post was swiftly deleted. It may be just one small action, but the very act of censorship speaks volumes. Is there no room for questioning in the church, only obedience?
Equally worrying is the reply I received for an earlier post from one of the administrators of the Facebook event - an NTU undergraduate, Gideon Yeo - seen below:
As I have mentioned above, extensive information about Hinn is a simple Wikipedia search away. In this case, it was literally a mouse click away, since I had already provided the link. And Gideon is a student at a top university in Singapore: one of the educated elite, so to speak. But his post shows a total lack of analytical and critical thinking that is supposed to come with education -- one is led to wonder if he even bothered to click the link and read the article.
Perhaps his reply says it best: the grammatically-correct hyperbole shows a high level of education, but the total lack of any meaningful content whatsoever betrays a lack of, or a refusal to utilise, any thinking skills. It may sound harsh, but to describe the so-called signs and wonders as "undisputed" after (presumably) having read an article listing all the disputes surrounding them justifies such.
This is truly worrying with regards to both CHC and its members. Hinn is seen as the pioneer of charismatic evangelism, and the similarities between Hinn's and CHC's sermons are due to CHC's deliberate mimicry of his methods, right down to the laying of hands and the rock music. Does Hinn represent the next step for CHC? Are we going to see multi-million dollar jets and mass healings through Channel 5? Critics have described Hinn as a good man corrupted by power -- are the people at CHC immune to its allure?
As for the members, has the style of charismatic Christianity, with its strong emphasis on emotional manipulation, stifled their thinking abilities? When educated people such as Gideon display such rigid, unthinking views, should we be worried?
Note that all these are not personal attacks, but are criticisms directed at the charismatic style of Christianity itself. It does not matter who is at which position in the system, the result is more or less the same. Put any man at the helm of a dictatorship and the result is inevitably another Mugabe (who, prior to attaining power, was described as a shy, gentle man).
Similarly, when pastors deploy the emotionally manipulative techniques that characterise charismatic Christianity to capture their audience, the result is hardcore Christians calling themselves "Godchasers" and "Worldshakers", almost entirely under the influence of their religious leaders. This leaves them with a diminished ability to reason and critique, which bestows great power upon their leaders, allowing them to extract great sums of money and other sacrifices (such as time and effort) from their flock.
Hence one must recognise that it is not a flaw of the person, but a flaw of the system. Hinn, the man at the top of the oldest, most developed system of charismatic Christianity, should serve as a solemn warning to CHC. Instead, he is hailed as a hero. And that is why we must be worried.
84 comments:
Well written, brother.
It's good to see more people questioning the wisdom behind giving support to false teachers like Benny Hinn and co.
I personally have been warning against Hinn and company for months, but sadly, many from the church in question as well as in other congregations have turned a blind eye and ear, preferring instead to go with blind faith in their errant teachers.
Continue preaching and shouting out the truth, brother!
Shalom Aleichem.
i guess i'm pretty much same as you, i used to be a very "on" and high member back when i was 13 and 14, now at 16 i've lost my "faith", not that i don't believe in christianity or God, but is it really necessary to have hours of boring repeated preachings weekly?
sometimes it can be funny and good and i enjoy it, like stuff which i could use in my daily life other than just spent a whole freaking hour of religious duty.
i do have doubts, since you used to be a member, pastors in this church seems to always use stories and claim it to be true without even giving a name of the person.
and with that story, that asked for offerings and tithes and sometimes other stuff.
i am pretty sure that in Benny hinn's services past few years, were full of religious people, life-less. and the "power" of the holy ghost is probably just a boost in bass systems, notice how many extra speakers were put up on special big services?
i used to enjoy my time in church, such as volunteering in children's event to help out.
for me, i believe in this God, but i don't wanna be like a life-less christian fulfilling religious duty daily and stay away from friends.
i just don't believe i came in this world by the theory "Big bang"
yeah. i'm no longer a faithful or excited christian anymore, the songs suck honestly, i'm convinced that its the melody that provides the "presence" of God, or just call that, melody that pleases the mind.
I apologize if this is OT, Hung.
Yongwei: I am asking this not out of any malice, so I hope you take it in the right spirit -- have you examined yourself to see if you're in the faith, or were you just there going along with the flow?
i can't say that i was going with the flow, i chose to be a christian in the first place.
sometimes religious leaders are too strict, well, some are ok.
jokes you use outside can't always be used in the church.
even the word "Damn" sometimes means so bad to some totally religious people....
sometimes i just wanna stop going, well, most of the time.
but i just don't wanna go to hell if this religion turns out to be real( ha ha ha!), just that i believe, but i don't wanna do duties, i have my own life to handle too.
and i guess after some christians who might know me, and read this comment, would tell me "Faith without works is dead"...yeah yeah yeah.
(heh, don't ask too many questions, it might get personal and ruin me =P)
Yongwei:
Nobody can choose to be a Christian. We think we made the choice, but its God who convicts the heart through the Holy Spirit.
"Damn" is a bad word to me too, not because I want to be legalistic, but we need to bridle our tongues as James teaches in James 3. :)
I seem to get the feeling that you are not sure why you believe. And about the only reason you believe is because you don't want to go to hell. That's fine, but are you convicted of your sins? Do you hunger for righteousness and God's Word? Is God continuously sanctifying you? These are pertinent questions to ask yourself to examine if you're in the faith.
I think it won't be nice to continue discussing this here since it is Hung's blog. If you like, do feel free to email me at ikechua[at]gmail[dot]com, or just drop me a note at my blog (which you can access from my Blogger profile).
God bless, and Shalom!
I have ceased discussing what goes on in CHC with CHC goers anymore. (I will have more success shouting into an empty well - at least I hear my own echo.)
On top of that I personally have grown disappointed with megachurches completely. I called them 'factories manufacturing plastic hope'. Not real hope, but plastic ones like your ipod or PSP that appeals to the general sentiments of the populace, as in this case - prosperity, wealth, fame, riches. In short, Benny Hinn and his likes is only an end result of our 'affluent' society - a group of preachers who preaches what appeals to us.
I applaud you for your courage in writing this article.
well-written. :)
i do hope that people realise that popular pastors are not necessarily "right".
whether the teachings/practices by Hinn & CHC reflect what God is trying to convey in the bible is questionable.
Such things will keep happening, so take it lightly. Many will be conmen, many will be deceived. The more a man claims to be from God, the more people he will deceive. So let sleeping dogs lie.
anyway, read this original thots of mine on the Bible here,
http://www.relijournal.com/Christianity/The-Tabernacle-A-Hotel.117791
Pl give me your intellectual views.
I'm not sure if you have written about it before, but it would be interesting if you would share, from your own experiences, what made you lose faith in CHC.
Have read about Hinn before and am surprised he is coming so close to home. "Controversial" is an understatement; "Slimeball" would be more apt.
@sicarri: You personify exactly what Christianity is all about today - sound-bites and fuzzy feelings (and judging from your blog, a profound sense of self-righteousness in your own denomination). Probably don't even know what Calvinism is, or that even within Xtian circles, it is itself controversial.
The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins
I've written about CHC in the past: http://gssq.blogspot.com/2007/01/vist-to-cash-harvest-cult-i-went-to.html
Just curious. Would you still consider yourself Christian?
Tim:
I don't even have a denomination, and I don't need one. I don't need a label.
You're free to observe what you want to, and if compromising Christians are your cup of tea, it's no business of mine. :)
I wish you well.
Just wanted to share an experience from CHC of which I felt quite disturbing.
I went to their service probably a year ago and i remembered during the offering part when the worship leader when and said something along the lines of "you need to give a sacrifice upon coming into the Lord's house"
That was okay. What was alarming was that I still remembered VERY CLEARLY that he added on, saying "God does not want your loose change. God wants a sacrifice from you."
I was very affected by that comment. I brought this up to my friend, who was a member there of which she brought it up to her cell leader. I was quite excited initially when her cell leader asked me to call her back, but however only to find out that i was being put down but her and her other cell leader. Apparently her other cell leader was quite furious at my comment.
Firstly, sacrifice (as a whole) does NOT need to come in monetary form. Lets think about all those who gave their lives to be missionaries. How about all those that give their up to come up to church every week to help out in the programmes? Secondly, let us be reminded that what matters in the heart. Remember the parable about the old women giving two coins and Jesus saying that she give more than the rich man?
Kindly enlighten me if I have taken anything out of context.
Lastly, let me make it clear that I am not judging nor am I trying to waver anyone's faith out there. This is just an a personal experience from visiting CHC. As we know, we do not have the right to judge a follow Christian.
On the other hand, interesting article. :)
Josh: Check out 1 of the comment on tomorrow.sg.
http://tomorrow.sg/comment/view/6474783
I quote: "in the church, we do not ask, beg and force you to give money.
we just pass around an offering bag , which is your choice if you want to tithe"
God wants a sacrifice. Indeed. Truly. A sacrifice holy and pure. And a sacrifice means it will hurt.
So, when one earns $10,000 and gives a thousand, is that sacrifice?
Or when one have that one last dollar and one puts it into the offering bag, because one trusts that God will meet all your needs and He will provide?
I pays to keep close to only god and to disregard the hype one usually assoc with church life. In other words the body of christ.
In my church which happens to be a forerunner to CHC. I once heard of an incident when a man was falsely accused of adultery.
The word was banded around and although no specific allegations were made eventually this poor man was edged out of the so called body of christ.
His business suffered. His relationship with his church friends dissolved and as time went by he just dropped out.
I saw this all and it was terrible to say the least, no god, no christ, no teaching there.
The lesson is clear to me, church life is hazardous to your health. It's like plutonium, one should not get too pally with it.
As for the man he is now a buddhist.
Donate nothing. If a so-called Supreme Being can do fishes and loaves, he can damn well manage a few SGD. Then maybe charlatans like Benny Hinn, Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson and their loathesome, anti-intellectual ilk will be forced to go get real jobs.
To put it blatantly it's a step away from "legal" corruption (or is it already?), which is all the more disturbing since it's in the name of religion (which is supposedly sacred and unquestionable)...
I am rather dismayed by your blog post.
Let me first say this: I am a CHC member.
I realise that the internet and blogosphere has not been friendly towards CHC in general, starting first with the Sun Ho saga many years back.
Ever since then, CHC has never quite left the scrutiny of mainstream and new media.
From your entry, I can tell that you are an intelligent, thoughtful person. Your concerns are legitimate, and your purpose is sincere.
Frankly speaking: I've thought about the issues you've raised myself. And I hope to address some of these:
1) It seems that you have arrived at your position based on what you see on the internet and wikipedia. Also, you've put up videos that attempt to prove Benny Hinn as a fraud. However, I want to ask you this: have you been to a Benny Hinn service yourself, and seen what has happened? Have you attempted to dig out the other side of the story? Yes, criticisms may be rife about him, but it is important that you don't come to judgement so quickly, especially when your information sources are biased.
2) You position Benny Hinn as the most prominent speaker at the conference. That is not correct. It is quite ridiculous, in fact, that you conclude he is based on the fact that he's placed on the extreme left. Rather, it is the centre 3 speakers: A.R Bernard, Phil Pringle, and Ulf Ekman that enjoy a special relationship with the church. You therefore assert that Benny Hinn has some sort of influence with CHC. Well, yes and no. The truth is: CHC derives many of its characteristics from the above 3 speakers, and they have a special relationship, and not Benny Hinn.
3)You asked: "Is there no room for questioning in the church, only obedience?"
I'm quite concerned that you are shaken by how "blind" CHCers are based on ONE facebook comment. Have you even met Gideon in person, and spoken to him? Have you spoken to other CHCers as well? Personally, I have my doubts and concerns about many issues, trust me. To suggest that Charismatic Churches are raising up "blind" followers is an absurd claim, and frankly quite offensive.
In fact, it is Pastor Kong himself who taught us to "follow what the Bible says" and to "build our altar on God, not on man."
I do not claim to speak for the church. I am not a board member, or a pastor. I hope you are realising that your blog post is raising undue controversy, once again.
Please, spare us.
You want to know what I believe? Me, a CHC member? I do not worship Benny Hinn, or Sun Ho, or anyone for that matter. I worship God.
@ Terence:
Let me say this first: I am an ex-CHC member, after having been there for over a year with a high level of participation, and for a while in the beginning, even enthusiasm.
Frankly speaking, you are nitpicking at the edges of my argument without addressing the central problem. So let me simplify things for you.
Basically I'm saying
1) Benny Hinn is a fraud, with vast evidence from multiple sources behind my claim, and I'm asking why CHC is inviting people with such tainted reputations to preach at their church.
2) I point out the similarities of Hinn's methods with CHC's, and the results of such methods - which can be plainly seen in Charismatic churches - and I question such methods.
Basically you are saying
1) Because the evidence has been put up on the Internet, and has been collated into a Wikipedia article, it is not reliable. No matter what the orthodox pastor says, what the coroner says, what the investigators say, if their words are put online and put in a Wiki article, there goes their credibility.
2) Benny Hinn is not THAT important, even if people get the impression from the position on the poster that he is.
3) I was shaken by one Facebook message, and that I have not had contact with other CHC members at all, despite having been a CHC member for a year.
I asked two important questions. You didn't give me any answers, just that you "have thought about the issues yourself". Then you try to nitpick at all the little issues, which I shall now proceed to defend:
1) If you have watched the video, and read the articles that the Wiki article based its statements on, not just the Wiki article itself (tip: click on the footnotes), you will see that investigators have dug into Hinn's financial records, exposed him lying on video, and revealed that the people he seemingly 'healed' have died. Pastors of orthodox churches have spoken out against him, Christian organisation watchdogs have sent alerts of his financial extravagance. And there are many, many more. When I have the misfortune to step in something bad, I do not wonder to myself: "It looks like shit, it smells like shit, should I taste it before I can confirm that I should wash my shoes?" (And by the way, I've watched videos of Benny Hinn's services - if he claims he can heal the masses through TV, I guess it must be good enough?)
2) Okay, I think extreme left means numero uno, you think centre means numero uno, shall we call this a draw? Hopefully the meaning of Hinn's position on a poster will not affect the central argument too much...
3) Just because I posted up one Facebook comment to substantiate my claim, does not mean I based my entire argument on that one comment. Unfortunately, I did not carry tape recorders into the numerous CHC services I attended, nor did I carry them into my cell group services, nor when I conversed with other CHC members. But I will say that all of the above contributed to me being shaken about the effects on the members due to CHC's methods. I have not met Gideon in person, but I have met plenty like him. CHC members I've met a few as well -- about 17,000 of them, I think, each time I went for a CHC rock concert cum sermon.
So, now that I have replied to the concerns that you had, perhaps you will return the favour by answering just these two questions, which everyone seems to avoid:
1) Given the (overwhelming) evidence against speakers like Benny Hinn, why is CHC continuing to give him a stage and a mike to preach? (I will like to add that other guest pastors have also been called into question, but for now let's focus on Hinn)
2) Are CHC members acting in ways that are very similar, if not exactly identical, to members of Benny Hinn's church? If so, are they not just as susceptible to what Hinn is doing now to his own flock?
If possible, I will like you to defend Hinn, but if the man can't do it himself it is perhaps too much to ask of you.
And lastly....
I find it very offensive that you:
1) dismiss all of my information sources as biased. Perhaps you can shed some light on the shared agenda between forensic investigators, coroners, orthodox pastors and Christian financial organisations against Hinn?
2) put words in my mouth by saying I "therefore assert that Benny Hinn has some sort of influence with CHC". What I said was that CHC placed Hinn in an important role in the Asia Conference.
3) describe all this as "undue controversy". I think for most of us, it is long overdue.
4) inject a cringe-worthy remark at the end trying to paint me as some kind of monster subjecting CHC members to torture -- "Please, spare us" (???) Is this blog post too much for you to handle? Indeed, one's eyes will be hurt by light after a period of prolonged darkness, but most people embrace it, instead of asking it to spare them.
But yes, as you say, my concerns are legitimate, and my purpose is sincere. I sincerely suggest you give even more thought about these issues then you've already given.
thank god atheism doesn't carry such baggage.
8)
"Tim:
I don't even have a denomination, and I don't need one. I don't need a label."
Strange words coming from someone who dedicates a post claiming the Roman Catholic Church to be "The Great Whore".
I'm very glad you wrote what you did. I'm equally glad that you did not in anyway attack the church or the religion. You have my respect (not that it really matters) because you managed to maintain objective and calm despite the comments.
I've a friend whose Mother passed away recently from cancer because she thought that she was getting well through faith healing. The person who introduced her to it apologised at her funeral. I was just wondering why is it always the "successful" healings that make it to the papers and not these stories.
Your blog post made me realise that I'm not the only one questioning what exactly is going on. And for that, thank you. You're very brave.
I thought it should be pretty clear that when money is constantly involved, it tends to lead to corruption over time...
"Money is the root of all evil." may be a cliche, but it strikes true too many times to be easily dismissed as one.
"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
the writer put forth a good case. hope the agitated will have the gumption to respond objectively and defend his version of the 'truth'.
ever wonder why camel and not dog or what have you was singled out?
sounds like the most expensive country club to join in singapore. buy your way into heaven! anyway, thanks for the insightful article. it's always great to be an atheist. ramen!
If it was a dog you'd ask why not a rat.
There're many seeds smaller than a mustard seed - why was a mustard seed chosen?
Amused:
Money doesn't lead to corruption.
The verse is: "for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" 1 Timothy 6:10
and elsewhere you'll read always that its the love for money; not money itself.
be careful that the size of a man's bank account does not make your opinion of him.
Agagooga:
the "eye of a needle" could have been a reference to a narrow gate that existed in those days; to get through, a camel would have to lose the baggage its carrying before getting through. Worth thinking about no?
(not my idea btw, its researched by biblical scholars)
Terence:
I can't imagine how it must sting to read something like the above (as i've never experienced it myself), but remember that 1) God is the judge, not us; 2) Correction stings. 2 sides of a coin...
Yee Hung:
That's a good note on Hinn; I've personally never heard of him, so the warning is heeded.
I do feel that your attacks on charismatic Christianity might be a bit harsh though; while the validity of such weaknesses within its system is real, so too are the problems other denominations face (eg. legalism).
on a sidenote, the funny thing is that i was forwarded your post by a friend of mine who isn't a Christian.
the wier: There is no evidence at all to suggest that there was such a gate.
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm
Agagooga:
Good gravy, i stand corrected. : )
I was taught it, never thought to dispute it. Thanks!
in context tho; just so at least anyone else reading this takes away something:
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
~Matthew 19:23-26
Quote from your link:
"But the verdict is that even the rich, not only the rich, will find it impossible to save themselves – but with God all things are possible."
Yes, but the Jesus of the 4 canonical gospels is resolutely left-wing, and there're other areas where he is against the rich.
Do you not think the Prosperity Gospel is more Prosperity than Gospel?
Yee Hung:
Sorry if this is getting very OOT.
Agagooga:
You're right about Christ. But more than anything Christ is about salvation and redemption, about the spiritual and not the physical.
We're called to love (and thus to give to) the poor and the needy, the widow and the orphan, and thus the many warnings to the rich; not so much to damn them, but to damn thier materialism. Fast forward 2000 years and mankind is still the same. The problem is not money, but the heart.
You probably know this much, and thus your cynisism towards the Prosperity Gospel.
I am agreeing with you, not disagreeing. But my point was that we are not God, we cannot judge. If through the Prosperity Gospel (which i honestly have never heard), the Holy Spirit works, and one man hears the name of Jesus, believes in Him, and begins his relationship with God... do not the angels rejoice?
IF. the prosperity gospel is such that Jesus and His sacrifice are not preached, that salvation by grace through faith in Him is left unspoken, that the need to acknowledge our sins and thus to confess and repent is not made known; then yes. There is a cause for concern.
Of course... thats only the tip of the iceberg. But yeah... be careful not to discount anything too easily.
Christians think it is good for more people to believe in their god, but what if people believe for the wrong reasons?
"Cursed be he that does the work of the Lord deceitfully" - Jer. 48:10
Do not believe in anything (simply)
because you have heard it.
Do not believe in traditions because they
have been handed down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything because it is
spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything (simply) because
it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority
of your teachers and elders.
But after observation and analysis
when you find that anything agrees with reason
and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all
then accept it and live up to it.
Hung,
after reading up and doing some reflecting, I have finally come to a conclusion.
Firstly, I just want to thank you for this blog post, flawed as it is, but noble in purpose. You've certainly caused me to think, and for that I think you've reached you're objective.
Likewise, I can say the same for Benny Hinn. Flawed as he is, he has a noble purpose: to be a servant for God, used by Him to heal the sick.
The thing about us humans is that: whenever we set out to do something great, we often fall along the way.
But GOd still uses people despite of their imperfections. People are still healed at Benny Hinn crusades (though not all are real), not because of Benny Hinn, mind you, but because GOD ALLOWED IT.
I saw the dateline NBC documentary. It is as biased as can be. Right from the BEGINNING, it branded Hinn as a charlaton, a cheat. In the own words of the host:
"ashowman, zealot, a one man religious conglomerate."
There was zero attempt to portray a more balanced picture of him, unlike this article: http://www.trinityfi.org/press/latimes02.html.
Did the documentary even attempt to speak to those who were really healed? Did they speak to benny hinn himself? What kind of journalism is this? It's not balanced and objective!
However, there are some claims that are hard to dispute. The many cases of healing that never were. The millions of dollars in the coffers. You know Hung, I wish Benny Hinn would be more forthright about the criticisms against him as well.
I am reminded of a character in the bible: King David. Yes he committed adultery. Yes he had many wives. But God still used Him mightily.
Can we say the same for Benny Hinn? How sincere is Him towards God? Does he have a heart for God, and how sincere is his purpose? It is hard to judge with all the criticisms surrounding him.
And we may never know, unless you peer behind his life yourself.
And I'll let God be the judge of that.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
~Matthew 19:23-26
The basic idea is this: It is impossible for ANYONE (both poor and rich) to enter the Kingdom of God, but by the GRACE OF GOD, it can be possible.
Why does Jesus made ref to the rich. Because many of the disciples themselves are rich. Matthew is a tax collector. Many of the disciples also have fishing businesses. And if the disciples were poor, would they be "greatly astonished"? That tells something about their wealth.
About the prosperity gospel: it is often misunderstood. Yes, we think we should be rich financially. But not for our own extravagence, but such that the money can be used for His Kingdom Purpose. The prosperity gospel preaches a lot about generousity and against the love of money. Money is just a tool: it's how we use it.
1) Given the (overwhelming) evidence against speakers like Benny Hinn, why is CHC continuing to give him a stage and a mike to preach? (I will like to add that other guest pastors have also been called into question, but for now let's focus on Hinn)
Perhaps the senior leadership believe He is used by God, despite his apparent flaws? Perhaps they believe that despite the criticism, he is sincere in his purpose?
And yes, the other guest pastors have been called into question, but since when has anyone whose attempted to do something great not been subject to negative criticism. The guest speakers, they are all heavyweights in the Christian world.
2) Are CHC members acting in ways that are very similar, if not exactly identical, to members of Benny Hinn's church? If so, are they not just as susceptible to what Hinn is doing now to his own flock?
Of course, we are Charismatics, and we tend to act "alike". Susceptible? To what? What is Benny Hinn doing to his flock? Can you explain that?
Charismatic megachurches that preach the prosperity gospel are just plain blasphemous? where is the evidence to suggest that prosperity is as important as love and faith? Are their pastors growing their own empires or God's? If so why did God tell these pastors to setup their church in such a modern and secular manner. Wouldn't this cause more division between the various christian denominations?
Christ has warned us many a time about false prophets descending upon us. It seems to me this is all coming true. Where do megachurch pastors get their doctrines from? the entire church is following one single pastor whose perspective of christianity may or may not be flawed. didn't the bible want for us to be united in faith??
I have no doubt in my mind, that benny hinn is a blatant fraud. And I say this with conviction that he will not enter the gates of heaven. I pray earnestly for members of city harvest to not be deceived by his errant preachings and self centered gains.
Hongwei,
Prosperity is NOT more important than love or faith. The Bible clearly says that love is the greatest. What is prosperity without love and faith? Wouldn't prosperity be good if love and faith is clearly evident in the person?
Would you agree with me on that?
Churches being modern and "secular". What do you mean by "secular". And why can't churches be modern? Are we condemned to playing the organ for all eternity? There's a division between Christian denominations not just because of what megachurches do, but because of the fact that some christians just can't let go of old mindsets that are not according to the Bible.
You say with conviction that Hinn will not enter the gates of heaven. We'll let God be the judge of that.
@terence:
It seems to me you only watched the beginning of the documentary and made your observations from there.
"Did the documentary even attempt to speak to those who were really healed? Did they speak to benny hinn himself?"
With regards to the first question, they did attempt to find those who were supposedly "healed" - and found that they had been deceived. You really cannot blame NBC for not finding those who were really healed, since Benny Hinn himself wouldn't make the effort to find them to make a case for himself.
As for the second question, the answer is even more damning for Hinn. NBC did approach Hinn personally, and went one better - it filmed him on hidden camera, lying outright - when he had said on TV that he would 'rather die than lie'. If you had taken the documentary seriously, instead of just watching the beginning and making a judgement on the video, perhaps you would have caught this.
There are a lot of optimistic 'perhaps' in your arguments, Terence, and it is worrying. It seems to me that in your view Hinn could do no wrong -- why such great faith in him? When the only thing you have to defend someone is a whole string of "perhaps", against a truckload of cold, hard evidence, it only speaks of desperation and an unreasonable faith in the person. Perhaps you should reconsider your stand.
As for your question - what Benny Hinn is doing to his flock - do pardon me for stating the obvious:
He is deceiving them BIG TIME, of their money, of their trust, and for those who died believing they were cured, of their very lives. As is written in the article that you linked to, said Hinn: "If I did not believe God healed, I'd quit tomorrow and go get a job." This is a jobless man, travelling around in a jet, living in a multi-million dollar home, driving a Mercedes Benz SUV, and generally spending money as if it were water. Where did all this money come from?
Also, your faith in God is admirable, but it borders on over-reliance on Him. Yes, let God be the judge, but He gave you a brain for a reason.
Alas, Terence, it would seem that no amount of evidence, logic or reasoning can convince you to force yourself out of your defensive stand and take an objective look at things. You say you have given the matter further thought and research, but in the end you answer my questions with wild, Panglossian "perhaps".
I see no way to argue in such a way that a simple "perhaps Hinn will change", or a "perhaps Hinn has an evil twin" or a "perhaps Hinn was kidnapped in 1980 by UFOs and replaced with a clone" cannot counter.
I think I shall drop out of this argument. I can only wish you all the best.
I too belong to a charismatic church, and being in NUS, i guess i would fall under the label of educated elite.
Well, to me, I guess the important thing is separating the words of God and Man. Of course, having said that, it's definitely no easy task so what I normally do is to subject what I hear in sermons to a fair bit of analysis at home, and it helps to do your homework about visiting pastors as well.
That's my two cents.
Money is not just a medium of exchange anymore. Money has become the basis of life and living to the point of dictating our value system and who we should be - the mark of the beast? When the bible talks about the love of money, it's talking about a corrupted RELATIONSHIP formed with money. From a medium of exchange, money has become tools of goverments/corporatisations/religious institutions to rule over the people.
According to the bible or its eternal counsel, man must be governed by truth and only in truth should man derives his meaningful existence (way,truth and life - in that order). But a relationship with money changes all that. Truth, laws and justice have taken on a different shade, tone and even 'color' in the rule of money.
In other words, the relationship with or the love of money eventually corrupts and perverts the people's value system and alter an explicit union to an illicit or adulterous one to our eventual demise - the harlot in the book of revelation?
Money empowers. But it's naive to think we can put this power to good use without understanding its deeper philosophical implications, motives and motivations.
That said, who doesn't love money or what it can buy you?
It can buy you an audience and they in turn put more money in your offering bags.
God doesn't want your sacrifice.
He wants your obedience.
Read 1 Samuel chapters 10++. Saul tried a bit too hard for sacrifices.
In life, I personally feel God doesn't want us to sacrifice. I see sacrifice as an issue of "I don't want but God says I must".
I don't think God even needs our sacrifices. He's got everything, why does He need our sacrifices? I personally see it as all this will help benefit ourselves, not God, when it comes to service and sacrifice.
But I do suppose the ultimate aim is for us to have a heart that is willing and obedient to God. Our lifestyles wouldn't seem too difficult to compromise if we can purely see it from God's perspective, rather than a personal sacrifice/compromise.
Anyways, I do know I'm off the main topic, but it's just a point I'd like to share.
Erm, shalom? Hahaha..
“Scratch any cynic and you’ll find a disappointed idealist.” - George Carlin
I think you were looking for God and probably found christians/churches/systems which might have disappointed (as we all WILL fail when we aim to be perfect).
Are you still searching for the truth or do you feel like you've understood it all? I'd recommend that you continue searching until you can tell yourself you are 100% sure, which we may never be as long as this world is changing and we are perceive through our finite intelligence (note: not even wisdom yet).
More than the controversies... I think God is interested in you, even your doubts.
I am a Christian in a big church as well, I focus not on the form of things, but the heart of it. We cannot all agree, but we all strive to please the same God. If anyone of us does it with insincerity, that's his business with God. God cannot be mocked, man will stand before the Ultimate Judge to account for his actions. God is wiser than you think :)
God bless you!
In this case you have defined 'the truth' to be Christianity.
What about Christians? Do they feel like they've understood it all? Are they 100% sure?
No, I believe I typed "truth". Are you suggesting it is Christianity?
I certainly did not suggest Christians are 100% sure. Are you? I am not.
But I am CLEARLY DEFINITELY suggesting you (and I) have finite intelligence. That's why I advocate a pursuit of the truth.
I probably read too many Christian books, so I am biased :p but I'm most impressed with Mere Christianity. Simple and logical for the not-so-intelligent me.
Cheers :)
No, I believe I typed "truth". Are you suggesting it is Christianity?
I certainly did not suggest Christians are 100% sure. Are you? I am not.
But I am CLEARLY DEFINITELY suggesting you (and I) have finite intelligence. That's why I advocate a pursuit of the truth.
I probably read too many Christian books, so I am biased :p but I'm most impressed with Mere Christianity. Simple and logical for the not-so-intelligent me.
Cheers :)
Anonymous 10:16 AM: I find that the people Christians always urge to seek 'truth' are those who have tried Christianity and found it wanting. They never urge fellow believers to do this, ergo my inference.
Ah, CS Lewis. Originator of the false trilemma. Apologetics is always seductive, but ultimately empty.
Kong Hee is basicaly a deluded pastor who is trying to impose his own warped beliefs on christianity into all his members. Who does Kong answer to? Where did he get the idea that God must be contemporary, trendy and extravagant? Why must we commercialise a church to 'spread the good news'? Isn't God above all these earthly and materialistic desires?
I wonder what city harvest members have to say when asked these questions.
Satan is a master of twisting the bible. Are there similarities here?
I read the posts that you say that you believe in this God.
So why bother about the pastors?
When I give my tithes and my offerings, when I do my duties, when I serve in church, when I pray, when I sacrifice my time, it is not because of the pastors. I do not do it unto them. I do it unto God.
So what if benny hinn is a liar and a cheat? I give my money to God not to Him.
I went to his service to seek God and not benny hinn. Pastors are servants. They are not there to take fame and glory.
If they are there for fame and glory alone, you can be assured that they will be in hell before long.
If you just do it unto God, everything becomes so simple and so genuine. It is God we trust and God we believe it.
Even pastors also say that they are flawed. They also can backslide. They can also make mistakes. Why not? They are human. But I don't care because God will take care of them.
I do what I'm supposed to do and I know that when I serve I will definitely reap.
It is not even spiritual. Its a factual truth.
God works in supernaturally natural ways. He is not going to just make you successful but teach you how to get there.
I assure you that being a leader, working hard, serving the people, learning patience etc will go a long way into helping you become a CEO or whatever success story you want to be.
I have nothing against you. But I feel that you just don't think the little things matter. But they do.
God doesn't tell us to serve because we must or give because we must.
Everytime we do it, we become trained and more seasoned.
A man who loves the Lord will carry on in his mandate and mission for life because God has trained him over time, over the years and he has encouragement and backing others don't have.
A man who doesnt know God will give up easily and settle for a normal life. They just don't know what they want or what they are supposed to do. They just want to get this life over with and live it the happiest way they know how.
And even IF God was fake, there is no harm in being a Christian. As you say, the melodies soothe you, the Word encourages you and if God were an imaginary friend, then wow what a great friend He is!
It is scientifically proven that people are motivated or encouraged when they believe they have a source of help to fall back on or hope on.
Optimistic people with or without God are success stories. I don't see the harm of believing in God if He can help you with optimism.
Everything that you need to go far in life. God can help you, even if He is fake.
I see no loss in believing in Him. Everyday I'm just happy and hopeful and joyful. Even if bad things happen in my life, I'm not afraid cause God will take care of me.
And think! Compare someone who is afraid and someone who is NOT afraid of storms in their lives. Who is in a better position to lead themselves out of trouble?
Believe in it and you shall have it. It is not even a Christian principle. It is life.
God doesnt teach you how to be a Christian man. He teaches you what life is like and how to live it to the fullest.
There is no need to have such great discussion about the pastors. If you trust God, He won't let you be cheated. If you don't, then you probably don't believe in Him anyway.
Some food for thought.
I'm a city harvest member. And God has treated me very well. I used to sian and want to give up and leave church.
But God, not pastor or benny hinn, not church people but GOD HIMSELF took care of me when I was in trouble.
Its up to you whether you want to find Him. The pastors and the church should not be the main concern.
The wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous. As long as you are secure and confident of yourself, there is nothing wrong with being cheated. You need not fear if you don't do something wrong.
When you die, your money won't go to hell with you. Neither will your possessions. Keep so much for what.
No personal attack/offense intended up there. It is merely my own opinion.
Its easier to let go of situations and let God handle them. Why?
In any case we CANNOT CHANGE our situations what. Why not let God change us so we can adapt?
The most powerful men are not those who can control and dominate. But are those who can blend into any situation and turn it around for GOOD because of his own positive attitude.
Easier said than done I know. But I'm not perfect. Do not expect this post to be.
Cheers.
why do Christians always argue among themselves with such things? stop wasting time here arguing and start sharing the good news. Pray and look for the LOST!!!! Behold, the END TIME is getting nearer than you expected!
Because one thing keeps repeating in the bible:
Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits....
2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.
Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
Anyone ever noticed how much of the sermon is usually the pastor's opinions and reasonings? So little referencing is taken out of the bible let alone understanding the context of the bible verse and passages used that was intended from the message. Listening to their sermons make you lose sight of the bible. It no longer becomes God's word but man's teachings. Far too often.
hello. i'm a CHC member for almost one year now, let me say this first. however, i am typing this post with a perfectly neutral point of view.
firstly, different people have different tastes. so, different people suit different types of churches, worships, praise.
this does not mean that since you do not agree with the CHC preaching of the Word, you have to relentlessly criticise it.
i agree with the fact that CHC's preaching does not agree with some people, but why can't you leave CHC alone, instead of bitching about it here?
please, look at things with an open mind. experience things firsthand, instead of immediately labelling something as bad and relying on other sources just to prove your point, which may not necessarily be true.
CHC has done alot in these few decades, much more than anyone could have dreamed of.
i would like to also add that of all my few months here at CHC, i have not heard ANYTHING about Benny Hinn, but instead have heard very much abt Pastor Phil, Reverend Bernard, and Pastor Ulf Ekeman, and have even experienced their preachings when they came to CHC, and i can say that they are perfectly honourable people with good hearts, serving the glory of God. i don't really know much about Benny Hinn, but i have read the articles you linked and the videos you posted. however, i am taking these with a pinch of salt, and will rather form an opinion of him once i hear his preachings at Asia Conference 2008.
i agree that not all pastors are good, but before you accuse Pastor Kong for being greedy for money, let me tell you this: Pastor Kong and Sun do not live off CHC's money. they get NOTHING out of CHC. they only give their all to CHC. Pastor Kong's income comes from his business, and Sun's income comes from her job in the entertainment industry.
lastly, i would like to say that the youth in CHC are not following this blindly. i, for one, am 16 years old this year, and am going to take my O levels soon, and i would like to say that, for the most part, we youth know perfectly well what is right and what is wrong, and we can judge things for ourselves. we can abstain from believing things that we feel are wrong. for example, i sometimes do not agree with some preachings in CHC, but i take things with a pinch of salt.
so please, i beg of you that you will not criticise what you may necessarily think is bad, and instead, look at the positive side of everything. for as the Bible says, let only good words, or praises, fall from your mouths, and kepp all negative thoughts, or criticisms to yourselves.
furthermore, i believe that our time will come, on the day of judgement, and those who did many wrongs in their lives will get their divine retribution. therefore, let us not judge others, but let God judge them, and us, instead, and trust God in whatever we do. May God bless you all (:
hello. i'm a CHC member for almost one year now, let me say this first. however, i am typing this post with a perfectly neutral point of view.
firstly, different people have different tastes. so, different people suit different types of churches, worships, praise.
this does not mean that since you do not agree with the CHC preaching of the Word, you have to relentlessly criticise it.
i agree with the fact that CHC's preaching does not agree with some people, but why can't you leave CHC alone, instead of bitching about it here?
please, look at things with an open mind. experience things firsthand, instead of immediately labelling something as bad and relying on other sources just to prove your point, which may not necessarily be true.
CHC has done alot in these few decades, much more than anyone could have dreamed of.
i would like to also add that of all my few months here at CHC, i have not heard ANYTHING about Benny Hinn, but instead have heard very much abt Pastor Phil, Reverend Bernard, and Pastor Ulf Ekeman, and have even experienced their preachings when they came to CHC, and i can say that they are perfectly honourable people with good hearts, serving the glory of God. i don't really know much about Benny Hinn, but i have read the articles you linked and the videos you posted. however, i am taking these with a pinch of salt, and will rather form an opinion of him once i hear his preachings at Asia Conference 2008.
i agree that not all pastors are good, but before you accuse Pastor Kong for being greedy for money, let me tell you this: Pastor Kong and Sun do not live off CHC's money. they get NOTHING out of CHC. they only give their all to CHC. Pastor Kong's income comes from his business, and Sun's income comes from her job in the entertainment industry.
lastly, i would like to say that the youth in CHC are not following this blindly. i, for one, am 16 years old this year, and am going to take my O levels soon, and i would like to say that, for the most part, we youth know perfectly well what is right and what is wrong, and we can judge things for ourselves. we can abstain from believing things that we feel are wrong. for example, i sometimes do not agree with some preachings in CHC, but i take things with a pinch of salt.
so please, i beg of you that you will not criticise what you may necessarily think is bad, and instead, look at the positive side of everything. for as the Bible says, let only good words, or praises, fall from your mouths, and kepp all negative thoughts, or criticisms to yourselves.
furthermore, i believe that our time will come, on the day of judgement, and those who did many wrongs in their lives will get their divine retribution. therefore, let us not judge others, but let God judge them, and us, instead, and trust God in whatever we do. May God bless you all (:
hello. i'm a CHC member for almost one year now, let me say this first. however, i am typing this post with a perfectly neutral point of view.
firstly, different people have different tastes. so, different people suit different types of churches, worships, praise.
this does not mean that since you do not agree with the CHC preaching of the Word, you have to relentlessly criticise it.
i agree with the fact that CHC's preaching does not agree with some people, but why can't you leave CHC alone, instead of bitching about it here?
please, look at things with an open mind. experience things firsthand, instead of immediately labelling something as bad and relying on other sources just to prove your point, which may not necessarily be true.
CHC has done alot in these few decades, much more than anyone could have dreamed of.
i would like to also add that of all my few months here at CHC, i have not heard ANYTHING about Benny Hinn, but instead have heard very much abt Pastor Phil, Reverend Bernard, and Pastor Ulf Ekeman, and have even experienced their preachings when they came to CHC, and i can say that they are perfectly honourable people with good hearts, serving the glory of God. i don't really know much about Benny Hinn, but i have read the articles you linked and the videos you posted. however, i am taking these with a pinch of salt, and will rather form an opinion of him once i hear his preachings at Asia Conference 2008.
i agree that not all pastors are good, but before you accuse Pastor Kong for being greedy for money, let me tell you this: Pastor Kong and Sun do not live off CHC's money. they get NOTHING out of CHC. they only give their all to CHC. Pastor Kong's income comes from his business, and Sun's income comes from her job in the entertainment industry.
lastly, i would like to say that the youth in CHC are not following this blindly. i, for one, am 16 years old this year, and am going to take my O levels soon, and i would like to say that, for the most part, we youth know perfectly well what is right and what is wrong, and we can judge things for ourselves. we can abstain from believing things that we feel are wrong. for example, i sometimes do not agree with some preachings in CHC, but i take things with a pinch of salt.
so please, i beg of you that you will not criticise what you may necessarily think is bad, and instead, look at the positive side of everything. for as the Bible says, let only good words, or praises, fall from your mouths, and kepp all negative thoughts, or criticisms to yourselves.
furthermore, i believe that our time will come, on the day of judgement, and those who did many wrongs in their lives will get their divine retribution. therefore, let us not judge others, but let God judge them, and us, instead, and trust God in whatever we do. May God bless you all (:
sorry, my computer hung, and i accidentally clicked on the "post" button several times. ):
Basically, I opened this blog because of a new paper article today.
First thing first, I am and believed some might wonder, what actually happened that cause you to leave church.
Perharp, there are many people like you, leave church with a dishearted heart, but there are many of choose to believe, maybe because of the bond that they have, the faith that they carried and still hold on today.
I was and still a member of the church, personally, I once thought that the church is "professionalize" if that they word I can use to describe it as every single things we do, people of the world will follow after it, bad or good, newspaper will report about it.
People from entertainment come and attend church, people will question and said something about it. People going into the entertainment world, people will report about it and give bad or good comments.
I started attending since 16, which is in 2004 without realizing that it is mega church and I was a hard core unbeliever that never believe in God. But that one experience changed my own life and I started to attend.
Ups and downs I had those but the worst was when a big sister of mine from the church who was in the church earlier than mine did certain stuffs that hurt me.
Yet 3 years down the road after the incident, I attended CHC Bible School, and after Pastor encouraged us to Senior Pastor to share what to learn and if we feel we are faraway from him, it is just because we never really do anything like even emailing him. Thus after that I wrote and mentioned about the incident not meant for bad but to thanks Pastor for the supports he provided to each of us and the international students.
Yet to him, he felt the needs to really met up with me and to help me but he was away and he sent another Pastor to come and counseled me and after that incident, I found true friends around me that encouraged me and helped me through the process and I understand, through it all, people in church can disappoint us and they can even be a regular member that attended church many years but they are not necessary representing the senior leadership in the right way.
And regarding Benny Hinn. These news has been out there for years. I had heard about them, read about them. Carried my own views, Benny Hinn has his fair shares of bad and good comments from the world outside.
And I believed, we are not as naive as the world think we are.
As I only speak for myself, the world outside, many nations give him a stage is because he got a certain reputation and really not just 10 or 20 witnesses but hundreds. Whether it is claim or people can say because he is rich, he got the ability to ask people to claim that they are healed, but many of the times, what we think we know might not be the full truths. One side of the coin is not enough.
Thus maybe now is also a good times to find out.
And if ever possible, do share why your faith is disminished. Cause I believe that are readers who wanna to know what happened.
And won't it also be a good time for you to share and convince people why the church is like that as you mentioned as an introduction?
Cause personally, there are 5 classmates who gathered to bring me to church 2 months before O level, they left church after O' Level, and before I knew it, my classmates who weren't in church said they went around talking bad about the church. Some left because their parents wanted them to work and certain jobs like pub, my friends who are in church for quite few years discouraged them for it wasn't a very good environment and is it wrong to discourage something that is bad?
And in 2007, one of them came church and told his close friend that in his heart, he wished to come back, but is ashamed because of the road he choose and right now, he is still wandering around, without a fix job.
I has been in church for over 4 years, most of my friends has been in church for that long or even longer, we see people with 1 year of faith leaving and people who choose to stay not because of pressure but because their lives is changed. And there are many with dishearted heart with certain people of the church found a hope when they get to know people outside the circle of just the group that they are under.
We learn to grow our circle, and mixed with other people. And certain groups even has a whole group of people who was once in gang, or from single family and hoped to find a hope.
We only heard about the bad side and maybe people don't wanna continue talking because all that come bad is only the bad because of personal views but why not go in deeper. I believed as one of them mentioned here.
There are different groups of people in the church, just be in a church for a few months to a few years doesn't mean we know everyone. It take me a decision to expand my circle to a bigger group of friends.
And if people asked about bad experiences of others, I has them and friends who gone through it.
If people want life changing stories, I heard many too.
Maybe it's times to know deeper.
P.S. This post is my personal views and experiences. Doesn't stand for the church or others.
Not targeting anyone.
What is the point for you to post so much critism that benefit u nothing in the first place....you want to stir people up to hate CHC? or what I don't really understand why you want to criticize Benny Hinn or CHC so much like you are holding grudges against them for some reason....if you don't like CHC so much don't go la....not like someone pointing a gun on your head telling u to go attend CHC or Benny Hinn service....just live your own life and leave them alone la although I am not from CHC nor a christian all your comment and post are very obviously being bias to them. Even Police and Judges need evidence to convict or nail someone to their crime. The source the source that you provide can't be even used as hardcore evidence against them...so just stop your bullshit and just live your own life la.....
I assume Roger and people like him would use the same attitude towards Katherine Kuhlman and other Faith Healers, Conspiracy Theorists, MLM-ers and more.
No wonder that "Mahjullah Singapura" is an oxymoron. Maybe we should change to "Bo chup lah Singapura"
Then you tell me why you want to interfere with things that doesn't concern you in the first place, just because your working a proper 9am-5pm doesn't mean that others have to be the same as you plus you also didn't donate any money to Benny Hinn why you're angry with him about? does everybody need to work a proper job to be so called a "good person" some people are just born rich or they just happen to be a millionaire. If you envy them then work hard for your 1st million dollars la...instead of staying at home criticizing christian millionaires....
Why report magic stone salesmen to the police? Why interfere with things that don't concern you in the first place?
Just because you're working an honest job which doesn't con people of their money doesn't mean that others have to be the same as you. Plus you also didn't buy any magic stones, so why are you angry at magic stone salesmen?
Does everybody need to work an honest job to be called a "good person"? Some people are just good at cheating other people of their money.
If you envy them then go and sell your own magic stones... instead of trying to stop other people from being cheated
So what you trying to say....Benny Hinn is a magic stone salesman now? since u can say so much thing about him means your more capable then him la isit? if yes show me your private jet and your 12 bodyguards la....if no then shut up and mind your own business la....
Unfortunately I do not profit from the misery/gullibility/stupidity of others, but I can point you towards someone who used to have gold taps in his office. I think you'd get along very well with him.
"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting. And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."
John 2:12-16
"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Mark 11:15 - 17
"And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Luke 19:45 - 46
"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves. And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Matthew 21:12 - 13
Firstly, I do believe that Ps Kong, Sun, AR Bernard, and Ulf, are great pastors, and even Benny Hinn who obviously has documented faults and major moral failures which he himself would need to work this out with God. That said, Rev Benny's books and tapes has been a great blessing.
As an ex-CHC member when it was still at Payar Lebar, I do urge people, especially young people to focus always on God and not on Rev Kong. For I have seen many of my friends fall, especially the more zealous one who later became also the most cynical ones. Don't go to the extremes but be faithful and consistent for it is a very long journey of faith and CHC may only be a phase in your lives.
CHC of course has a profound influence in my life and even today many friends are either still at CHC or ex-CHC, and has remained friends for life.
Naturally, CHC ain't perfect, but their zealousness and passion for God, and for outreah is a very good testimony of what Christianity should be.
God bless.
Survivor
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."
- Matthew 7:15-20
38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
Mark 9:38-41
Hi Hung,
I've been reading the blogs and forums on this matter, and also did some research on the Internet personally. It was especially interesting for me to read about the US Senate Finance Committee's review on Rev Benny Hinn's ministry.
Just to highlight some facts I found while on the Internet.
(1) A recent press release issued by the Senate Committee on Finance on 7 July 2008 commended Benny Hinn Ministries on having “engaged in open and honest dialogue with committee staff. They have not only provided responses to every question but, in the spirit of true cooperation, also have provided information over and above what was requested”. The committee found the responses to be in “good faith” and “substantively informative” and noted that reforms were being instituted “without waiting for the (Senate) committee to complete its review.” (Quotations from press release issued by US Senate Committee on Finance on 7 July 2008, http://www.senate.gov/~finance/press/Gpress/2008/prg070708.pdf)
Unlike what some blogs and online comments seem to insinuate, as if the Senate was investigating Benny Hinn Ministries for some irregularity committed, the Senate Committee is conducting a REVIEW of the finance procedures of several Christian organizations. Another quote from the above website states: "The committee is not conducting an audit of the organization. The committee is focused on the adequacy of the federal tax laws that govern the tax-exempt sector, including churches."
(2) Furthermore, a 2007 Inland Revenue Service (IRS) examination of the Benny Hinn Ministries showed that it was in compliance with federal tax laws and clear from any IRS prosecution.
Well, I just wanted to put up some facts that I ascertained from my own research as well. :)
We have voice recordings of Benny Hinn as a false prophet.
For those who are defending him, justify these...
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tbn.htm
Lehman Brothers Derivative Products Inc was given AAA rating... think again.
oh man, Clarence - CHC
"Its easier to let go of situations and let God handle them. Why?
In any case we CANNOT CHANGE our situations what. Why not let God change us so we can adapt?"
...........
When you are jobless, have a family to feed and running low on cash, you sit at home wait for god to do something in your life?
God will suddenly change you to have the will to go upgrade yourself with a cert? Or change your mind to swallow your pride to take a low ranking job that does not befit your paper wotk just to tide your family over the difficult period?
--------------------------------
Hung did a very well written piece which has the church's members' interests in view. Interests such as whether they're taken for a joyride or some that at an influential age, can be influenced by the certain things going on.
It is not an attack on CHC but just a questioning which proper answers can solve but so far all the people coming out to counter argue with his post are either:
a) quoting a lot of bible stuff or saying things which are irrelevant to his case in point
b) Started to qns his beliefs and everything when it has nothing to with the case in point.
c)Defending CHC's choice and giving reasons of why they do so which again, not case in point.
and etc etc etc.
Anyway yee hung, it was a good article and it got brains working, hopefully others who actually fall under the "blind followers" category would take heed or at least ponder over it.
I am a CHC member, but that has no effect on my current stand.
In the end, with this post and the comments, many arguements have been laid out in a clear manner, my wish is that all readers will fully understand each sides' arguements. That the reader would come to understand both sides objectively, not swayed by what your leaders say but objective truth.
In the end, it is each one's own development of his and her relationship with God. Find your truth by hearing from God on a first hand basis. Thats all I will say.
No point finger pointing and lambasting the staff and members of City Harvest. If you have a personal revelation from God, that is all you need and the right discernment guided by the Holy Spirit to decide what is right or wrong. It is a pity that the authors and his friends did not go through what the 20 odd thousands attendees, helpers and volunteers had went through over the five day Asia Conference. Straying away from God has given us no reason to give judgement on anybody - especially God's anointed (Benny Hinn for that matter).
I still have reserve my doubts on Benny Hinn, and regarding the prosperity message.(i am from the church btw.)
however,Any lingering doubts on the healing ministry of Benny Hinn disappeared after asian conference. I was serving as a first aider throughout the conference. on the day of Benny Hinn's service, numerous people came and queued for his serivce, particulary the ill and sick. as such, our medical bay was kept busy. I remembered a particular women who came in crutches. she just had reconstruction surgery on her right knee about a month back. She came limping to my bay, her agony showing on her face. I attented to her... later at night in the serivce, i actually saw her rushing onstage with no crutches, sharing the testimony of how she is able to walk normally and bend her legs without much hassle. I contrasted that with her pain expression when i first saw her, how real it was, and how desperate she was, and i thanked God. and i Honor his healing ministry for that.
I still hold my reservations. time will tell perhaps.
http://www.pfo.org/four-die.htm
FOUR DIE AT HINN’S KENYA CRUSADE
Four people, including two young children, died while attending healing evangelist Benny Hinn’s crusade in Nairobi, Kenya, last May. The report from the Reuters news service said police told a local newspaper, the Kenya Times, that “the four had been released from a hospital to be cured at Benny Hinn’s ‘Miracle Crusade.’”
http://blog.au.org/2007/01/24/gospel-of-greed-evangelist-benny-hinn-comes-to-washington/
But perhaps even more alarming than Hinn’s “prosperity gospel” is his faith healing. Over the years, NBC and other news outlets have interviewed several people whom Hinn claims to have healed of afflictions like diabetes, cancer and blindness. Follow-up visits showed that many were not truly healed. Some had even died.
A 2003 investigation by the Los Angeles Times told the story of William Vandenkolk of Las Vegas, then 11 years old and legally blind, who attended a Hinn healing crusade in 2001. Vandenkolk was brought up on stage and “healed” by Hinn, but there’s just one problem: He’s still blind.
“It’s pretty sad when you mess with a little boy’s mind,” Randy Melthratter, the boy’s uncle and guardian, told the Times.
The Bible teaches that miraculous sign gifts served a distinct purpose; once that purpose was accomplished, they ceased. Modern tongues, prophecy and faith healing do not even remotely resemble what took place during the days of Christ and the apostles. The objective testimony of history is that these miraculous gifts ceased after the completion of the New Testament canon. Christ and the apostles did their miracles openly, even in front of their enemies. We challenge our Charismatic brothers to do likewise and prove to the world and non-Charismatic Christians that these gifts are real. Until there is biblical and empirical evidence to support Charismatic claims, we must regard the distinctives of the Charismatic movement to be bogus and fraudulent (2 Cor. 13:1). While we believe that modern faith healers are living in self-deception and (knowingly or unknowingly) committing fraud, we also believe that God heals His people with prayer. If you are presently attending a Charismatic church, you are exhorted to leave and attend a church that focuses on the truth as revealed in Scripture. God is not impressed by large numbers, silly entertainment and the phony miracles of modern Charismatic preachers. He wants you to attend a church that teaches the truth and worships Him as He has appointed in His Word.
Sigh...I really do not want to re-write any new comments. I will just copy & paste from the other blogs. One word - UTTERLY DISAPPOINTED
Wow, it was real shocking to find out so much about CHC...
My sister is attending this church.
Her leader really sucks to the core!
Sometimes I guess it's not the church's fault!
Perhaps their congregation is too big so somehow any Tom, Dick & Harry could just easily slip in. As a result, it cause heavy "corruption".
For example, her leader by the name of STEPHANIE SEAH SULING" she is overly controlling my sister in everything she does. Even when that so called leader is at fault, she does not admit. That leader always think that she is right in everything. Sometimes that leader even call her names & put her down in front of others. My poor sister took in every bit of sufferings. I told her many times to change a cell group or even the church but she refuses. She said if she did, her leader will curse her. On one occassion, the leader told her to break off with her boyfriend because the leader said that she is more worthy to be his girlfriend than my sister. How could she said that?! That evil leader is causing my sister a nervous breakdown.
Thank you for raising awareness.
I see some personal comments being made so I would like to share a few of my own thoughts.
I am not afraid of life even if it turns our that there is no God. Or that there might be no purpose in life. We make our own purpose and we pursue our own happiness with those we love and doing things we love.
Religion just makes some people happy because it makes them feel that there is a divine protection. God is sorta like an imaginary friend. I like that idea that there will be fairness: Good shall be rewarded with good. I try to live with morals or code of conduct that I feel comfortable with. There is little need for organized religion for me because it is a culture of faith.
The part of Christianity I admire is the good work that they do: running orphanages and helping others. But I think there is no evidence of creator. I believe in evolution because of the scientific evidence that we have and it is the theory that is most likely. (Btw, big bang is more likely than creation anyway.)
Also, the idea of Christian Hell is very harsh. How can it be that the unbelievers or sinners burn in hell for eternity? Those who lived a good life but not Christians? There are people who have sinned horribly but do they deserve a total damnation?
Helloo.. What is this?
"firstly, different people have different tastes. so, different people suit different types of churches, worships, praise.
this does not mean that since you do not agree with the CHC preaching of the Word, you have to relentlessly criticise it "
The law doesn't say that we cannot criticize public institutions. (Or am I wrong and CHC is a private organization?)
Especially when the blogger has some justifications what he/she is saying. He has given no malicious accusations. Only bringing up the issue of controversial preachers and how 'unthinking' a few people can become when it comes to faith.
city harvest embraces materialism and secularism when clearly the bible has warned us against it.
They will not last another 10 years.
Well - Said Yee Hung!
To Terence: You are brainwashed! I am also another ex-CHC, my search for God there lasted 6 months before my spirit nudge me to look elsewhere.
Terence stop the pretense and repent! Dun be fooled by false gospel. read the bible and seek the word yourself but not on another man's interpretation! If you want to seek God then pick up the bible and read!
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/lochurch/mega.htm
read the difference between a mega-church and a bible-believing church on the link above! u will understand!
I been there, I done that, and I think I did the right thing by making a STOP there!
I was never taught about sin, repentance, God words... week after week, is about MONEY!
Be generous, God will bless you. God will not short change you! If you bless God in heaven, God will bless you on earth!
God bless you!
I would say... I m glad me n my wife learned it the HARD way!
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